Curse

Themis · May 22, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Assassins have only 25 energy, like Rangers (not 30, like casters), regen has nothing to do. Moreover, Assassins have often combos including skills that require 10 energy. Their skill bar is useless without combos. And Shackles empties their energy. So, no combos, no Assassins. Even without Mindwrack.

Each critical strike gets them 1 energy, but shackles takes away 4 or 5. They're empty within seconds. They merely manage to activate a 2-3 skill combo and they're empty.And i still have a full 40 energy pool. I tried it often (as for Rangers) it works fine. No point in discussing this, really.

And, yes, Diversion and Blackout are shutdown skills, not e-Denial. They fit different types of game. I don't like mixing eDenial and shutdown skills, cause i think that eDenial is the best shutdown, for all except Warriors.

fatboyslimerr · May 22, 2006, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Diversion is great for assassins if you catch their lead attack, and if they use chain combos requiring a lead attack. They're basically useless for 50+ seconds

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 22, 2006, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Diversion is a 6 second (at best)shutdown imo; nothing more.

its 2 energy per crit.

Hella Good · May 23, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Eaimirth, I wonder how much experience do you have with Shackwrack? Because I have yet to see a single Assassin, or Ranger, that doesn't get totally anihilated by it. This isn't me bragging about some distant concept, this is me speaking from experience. Shackwrack was one of the 1st things I used against Assassins (way back preview event 1) and it has become an integral part of my e-denial build ever since. Which part of how devastating this combo is on anything that attacks are you missing?

Let me give you some Maths to think about:

Shacks -> 5 nrg lost per attack (not hit, attack!)
Assassins:
-> 4 pips natural regen
-> 3 pips factual regen (seriously, if you are not using Zealous Tangs, you should think of switching professions) +1 nrg gain per hit
-> nrg gain on critical 1/2/3 ~ 3/8/13 in Critical Strikes
-> chance for critical 1% per lvl of Critical Strikes
-> doublestrike chance up to 32% ~ 16 in Dagger Mastery
-> Dagger Mastery effect on criticals is (to the best of my knowledge) unknown
Now pay special attention here:
-> Dagger attack rate - once every 1.25s, avg. about once every 1.05s (with double-strikes factored in) ~ 16 Dagger Mastery.

The very best nrg-wise that an Assassin can do is 13 in Critical, about 15 in Dagger, rest in whatever, Zealous Tangs, 5 nrg weapon (altho it is questionable who would choose 5nrg over 15^50). Attack rate is roughly 1hit per second and critical chance is 13%. This results in about 2.4 nrg gain per second (1 from 3 pips, 1 from zeal, 3 from 13% chance of criticals, all factored in and calculated). It also results in 5 nrg loss per second due to Shacks. This means that every second they will lose 2.6 nrg. In about 11 seconds they will have destroyed ALL of their nrg.

This calculation does NOT include:
- nrg cost incurred from the use of ANY skills
- nrg management skills
- +critical chance skills, including the possible + critical from Dagger Mastery (which Wiki is contradictive about, and I wasn't able to find any confimation that it exists)

But, what the hell, lets make it more interesting and say it takes Shacks 15s to destroy their nrg with any possible additional nrg gain. What if they use 1 skill? What if they use 2? This automatically brings us to my previous statement that it barely ever takes more than 10s to completely destroy their nrg pool and render them totally useless.

If this doesn't clarify things for you, I think I have exhausted my ability to help.

I would do the Maths for Rangers and Warriors but I'm too tired from long posts and I see the argument is swinging around Assassins mostly, so I guess we can skip that, unless some1 wishes to argue the case (in which case, I WILL do the Math and I WILL prove the point)

EDIT: Adjusted some calculations.

Terra Xin · May 23, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

I was almost about to say that Dagger Mastery increases double strike by 4%.... but then I use locusts fury alot... I love that skill...

OK, my maths might be wrong as well, but I think I have some corrections

1.25/100 = 0.0125 -> 0.0125 x 32 = 0.4 -> 1.25 - 0.4 = 0.85

Question. Does it take .10 seconds to doublestrike? From experience, it looks like it takes much longer than that.

Shackwrack is cool, annoying for me, I'd rather stand there than lose my energy to mind wrack. But then you have your other e-denial skills at your disposal.

Problem is though, you can only focus on one target.

Hella Good · May 23, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I took that off Wiki. Lets see:

Attack rate with double strike: (32% chance ~ 16 Dagger)
1 hit per 0.625s

Attack rate with single strike: (68% chance - the remaining strikes ~ 16 Dagger)
1hit per 1.25s

So it's:

0.32x0.625 + 0.68x1.25= 0.2 + 0.85= 1.05

Well that didn't help much did it.

And yea, your Maths is wrong.

And again, Shackwrack is spammable- 5s recharge on both skills. You'll see the Wrack trigger pretty shortly after you use the combo. You rarely need to spend more time e-denying that target (aside from occasional Wrack for some damage). You can just go back to torturing a Monk or whatever else gets you going.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 12:52 AM // 00:52

You have yet to factor in if the assassin does not use any skills; he is still ahead of you in terms of winning

Him=damage
You=no damage

Hella Good · May 23, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Er... Hello, my name is Wrack, I do ~ 90 damage every 5 seconds. Hello, my name is Wand, I do somewhere between 11-22 dam every 1.75s.

You actually do damage.

Since we are going in Mesmer Wonderland again, we might as well bring evasion skills, evasion evaders, self-heals, other party members, positioning, etc., etc. Or we can go out there and try it and then comment on it, perhaps?

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

If we are going to go into other party members; you have no debate.
Best to keep it 1-1 or its an insta loss for your side. ( in .5 seconds 2 hexes go bye bye! wooo~)

We can assume 1 of our enchantments will be fox; so so much for evasion.

Your wand never reaches that damage; the assassin has +15 armor whilist attacking.

Wrack only does damage if you get the assassin out of energy; which is somewhat difficult to do. Fist you have to wrack; then use a energy burning skill of your choice and hope that it drains all his energy for wrack (if it is still on)

Sure shackwrack will do some damage if the assassin plays into it; however will they? Doubtfully. They couldn't care less about wrack as they CoP shackles every time its placed on them. Considering that shackles have a cast time of 1.6~ this gives you a .4 margin where he won't be able to deal with it (assuming you cover in that time...gives you what? wastrels worry? wrack is too long a cast). Again the sin could interrupt it; as it is a long cast spell; and he know about when you will cast it.

Positioning we will give the sin (due to multiple cripples); unless you are packing illusion of haste or some silly skill like that.

Just a few counter points.

Hella Good · May 23, 2006, 04:14 AM // 04:14

I was merely making a point that you get hooked up on theory wars when- it seems- you have no experience with the combo. I don't think wasting time in a "what if" argument benefits anyone. It certainly doesn't benefit you more than trying it out and then giving feedback.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

What do you mean "what if"
This build that you have been fighting against is a viable build. I have seen people use it; it is a very good one in fact.

I have tried it out; thats how I found the counter.

Peace

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Mehh, you crazy kids are going on field trip with this... can I come ??
Hella if you were still gonna e-deny monks + use shackwrack and use drain enchantment for energy, would you use burn, surge, power leak and energy tap as the rest of your skill bar ???

Themis · May 23, 2006, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Eaimirth, in fact a Shackrack Mesmer has 5 more skills to kill an Assassin with

While an Assassin, has nothing more than his daggers and self-confidence. No point in trying to compare just Shackrack and a full Assassin skill bar.

Compare Shackles+Mindwrack+Images of Remorse+Ineptitude+Conjure+two-more and see what happens.

Crippling you say ? With which energy ? Within 6-7 seconds (as they continue attacking) there is NO MORE ENERGY. Not even for CoP. Nothing.
Staying away, waiting for your energy pool to come back ? With -8-9 life degen ? You are not serious.

In fact, there is one solution, for the Assassin : the Runaway-as-far-as-possible-and-Hide Elite skill...

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Since when do mesmers use 4 different attributes?

fatboyslimerr · May 23, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I think themis wussed out of fast casting. That is a mistake from my point of view because I could just power leak that mesmer till the cows come home and he would cry and cry. A mesmer without fast casting is naked in my opinion. I think Hella mentioned that you don't actually need much inspiration for shackles to work for a decent amount of time, dunno for sure though.

I tried Shackwrack after being raped by an assassin in TA on my blackout warrior (tis a flippin sweet build, how many warriors do you know that use power leak ???) I used empathy + shackles + mind wrack. Empathy seriously screws assassin and they can kill themselves in seconds. But the good old 85 dmg mind wrack spike did its part too and after shackles I didn't notice the assassin doing anything fly. I wonder if spirit of failure + shackwrack might work better because I was still taking damage from assassin/warriors etc.

Themis · May 23, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

You'll need 4 attributes if you plan of making a mix between anti-caster and anti-W/A/R. In fact you need 8 on inspiration, 9 perhaps, no more. Same for FC. A dozen on domination and illusion, it's enough. In my opinion, of course.
Or, you can put fewer in Domination to boost inspi and/or illusion. Mindwrack is not absolutely necessary, after all. A good degen is also enough.
The main skill is Shackles, not Mindwrack.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 23, 2006, 10:41 PM // 22:41

But without at least 10~ or so fast casting CoP will always be waiting for you when you try to cast it; and after the second casting they will most likely be in your face ='( Not to mention it is now a super easy target for temple strike with its casting time of 3.

I will stand by an old saying which someone on this board said (frankly I don't remember who; but is was true none the less) mesmers are only truely effective when they specialize, and focus on only bringing one type of character to their knees. There is no fix-all mesmer.

Hella Good · May 24, 2006, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

There is no fix-all mesmer.

I disagree. See, I used to think that way; I used to say it's best if you do either WarHate or CasterHate. But there is universal strategies you can use. I have been a big advocate of e-denial on these forums and it's tremendous ability to shut down just about anything. Warriors are the only exception to this, because of adrenal skills, but over time I have discovered that by maxing out your efficiency and capitalizing on your strengths, you can handle even adrenal warriors if not completely, at least to some extent. The other two- granted less efficient but nontheless universal strategies- are shut down and interrupt. Yes, you can shut down a Warrior, Assassin, or Ranger, yes, you can interrupt them. It's all about choosing the most fitting skills and using them to their full potential. You cannot deal with everything people throw in your face, no, but you can make a damn good attempt at doing it, much better attempt and with much higher survivability of a specialized Mesmer. I have virtually completely stopped playing specialized builds, I only play universal now. And I couldn't be more happy about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

You'll need 4 attributes if you plan of making a mix between anti-caster and anti-W/A/R.

That is correct. You need something like:

FC 8 (7+1)
Domi 15 (12+3)
Illusion 8 (7+1)
Inspiration 11 (10+1)

Illusion has to be exactly 8, Domination preferably at 15, Inspiration min 8 or more, FC- whatever is left.

1- Surge (E)
2- Burn
3- SoWeariness
4- Energy Tap/Drain Ench/Feedback
5- Distortion
6- Mindwrack
7- Spirit Shacks
8- Res

If Alliance battles, drop Res and take Tap and Drain/Feedback, instead of choosing one of the 3. You can also do Well of Weariness (which will last long enough with little points in Curses, you can easily find a balance point-> Example: FC 8, Domi 15, Illusion 8, Inspiration 8-9, Curses 7-8- all perfectly adequate levels for the type of skills you need from each attribute). You also take Power Leak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Since when do mesmers use 4 different attributes?

A Cripple Shot Ranger uses 5 attributes extremely effectively. The break points is what matters, not how many points you want to put in that attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

The main skill is Shackles, not Mindwrack.

Mindwrack is absolutely necessary. Shacks is the damage reducer, Wrack is the damage dealer. Shacks is the functional hex. Wrack is the cover-up. Without Wrack, what Eaimrith is talking about is likely to happen- hex will be removed. And yes, Shacks is spammable, but it's much more productive to reapply a 5nrg cover than the same 10 nrg hex over and over. Expell Hexes and Withdraw Hexes are the two skills to watch out for, still much better to worry about those two than worry about CoP, Inspired Hex, and the likes. Every build has a counter. This is really as good as it gets. Mindwrack should stay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Compare Shackles+Mindwrack+Images of Remorse+Ineptitude+Conjure+two-more and see what happens.

That is a WarHate build. I'm talking universal e-denial. Shackwrack is perfectly fine on its own, altho Distortion helps a ton as well. Keep it down the those skills that are the most effective and universally applicable, the most bang for you buck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatboyslimerr

Hella if you were still gonna e-deny monks + use shackwrack and use drain enchantment for energy, would you use burn, surge, power leak and energy tap as the rest of your skill bar ???

Yep. Again, Shackwrack is highly efficient (and spammable), fits right into your e-denial skill bar, doesn't require many points into Illusion or Inspiration to be highly effective (at Illusion 8 all WarHate hexes pretty much suck, but Distortion is perfectly viable; and Shacks last about 20s and always drains 5 nrg with just 8 points in Inspiration). Shackwrack is pretty much WarHate Domination/Inspiration style. But truth of the matter is you can play around with it so that it's whatever you feel most comfotable with.

Oh, and you guys really need to make me rumble less. Heck I don't even have patience to review what I just wrote.

Eaimirth Etaivella · May 24, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hella Good

A Cripple Shot Ranger uses 5 attributes extremely effectively. The break points is what matters, not how many points you want to put in that attribute.

But we are talking about mesmers; the day I see a fix-all mesmer that can solo-kill any build in the game is the day I eat my pants. Doing one thing well is much better than doing a half-ass job on several differnt things imo. If you need more answers to opposition threats; simple solution: bring more than one mesmer.

Hella Good · May 24, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Well, I can handle most anything that comes my way with my e-denial. Only thing is adrenal Warriors to some extent and maybe Eles with way too much nrg for their own good. I can kill Rangers and Assassins just as good as killing Monks, Necros, other Mesmers. I see no problem whatsoever. I think I like being able to do more than just kill the Monk and then stare dumbfounded at all the rest. But then that's just me and my wasteful desire to play my character to the max.

Sure you wouldn't like some chicken broth with those pants?